Todd Werth:
Welcome back to React Native Radio podcast. Brought to you by the City of Las Vegas, who reminds you what happens in Vegas is on Facebook forever. Episode 225, Behind Our Decision to Cancel Chain React 2022.

Jamon Holmgren:
Mazen, thanks for covering for me when I was out. I hear you did an amazing job.

Mazen Chami:
Thanks. Yeah, it was a little bit different not having you prompt us and get us started, but I think Jon Major and I did a good job and it was really nice having Fernando on.

Jamon Holmgren:
Yeah, that's the thing, I think having a really good guest is a good introduction to hosting a podcast because you have something to kind of focus on. You're not having to drive the conversation forward yourself and things like that. But yeah, I was out with COVID, and feeling a little better. I have a little cough going on, so hopefully, the editors will not have to do too much. I don't have a handy cough button. I'm just hoping that I can get through it. I did load up with some DayQuil. Hopefully, that helps.

Mazen Chami:
Glad to have you back.

Jamon Holmgren:
Well, I'm glad you had me back after that 'cause I assume you were like, "This is way better without Jamon."

Mazen Chami:
Well, we stuck to the script.

Jamon Holmgren:
So I guess I should reintroduce myself after being gone for a little while. I'm Jamon Holmgren, your host, friendly CTO of Infinite Red. I am joined today by my brilliant co-host, Mazen. How are you doing, Mazen, by the way?

Mazen Chami:
Doing well. Doing well.

Jamon Holmgren:
Good. We also have a couple of guests today, guest hosts, I should say. We're going to sort of do a round table and they are some familiar voices, if you've listened to this podcast before. One is an integral part of the podcast every time that we put one out, our editor ... What do I call you, just editor?

Todd Werth:
Sure.

Mazen Chami:
Assistant to the editor.

Todd Werth:
Just editor.

Jamon Holmgren:
I didn't know if I said like editor-in-chief or something like that. Okay.

Todd Werth:
No.

Jamon Holmgren:
I'll start over. We also have a couple of other guest hosts with us today. One is Todd Werth. He's our editor of the podcast, also the CEO and my partner in crime at Infinite Red. Todd, how are you doing?

Todd Werth:
I'm doing pretty good. Thank you so much for having me.

Jamon Holmgren:
Yeah. Well, I'm actually really looking forward to this topic. We have a lot to go over. Also, with us is another owner of Infinite Red, Gant Laborde, who has also hosted the podcast. Gant, welcome aboard.

Gant Laborde:
Yeah, thank you. If Todd's your partner in crime, I just want to say for the court, I'm the person who didn't know what was going on.

Jamon Holmgren:
You had no idea.

Gant Laborde:
No idea.

Todd Werth:
That is one of the most honest things you've ever said, Gant.

Jamon Holmgren:
There's no collusion.

Gant Laborde:
Absolutely not. Plausible deniability all the way.

Jamon Holmgren:
So in a way, this is sort of like the old Building Infinite Red podcast crew back together, but plus Mazen this time.

Mazen Chami:
Thanks for including me.

Jamon Holmgren:
For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, we did have a podcast called Building Infinite Red. You go to building.infinite.red and you can listen to I think 13 episodes or so, and that was with the founders and owners of Infinite Red through our first season, and we did part of the second season. We haven't really gone any further forward with it. Maybe we will at some point, but it's a fun one. Yeah, go take a listen.

Jamon Holmgren:
All right, so our topic today is we're going to give a Chain React update, and then we also, I have a little, kind of a teaser for something we might bring in in 2022. But before I get to that, I do want to say this episode is sponsored by Infinite Red. Infinite Red is a premier React Native design and development agency located fully remote in the U.S. and Canada.

Jamon Holmgren:
If you're looking for React Native expertise for your next React Native project, hit us up. You can learn more on our website, infinite.red/reactnative. Don't forget to mention that you heard about us through the React Native Radio podcast. And if you want to work with Mazen and with Todd and with Gant and with me, you can also go to careers.infinite.red and submit an application, and we'll take a look at it. One little note though, we only hire in the U.S. and Canada. So if you're a senior React Native engineer, U.S. and Canada, go to careers.infinite.red. All right, let's get into our topic.

Jamon Holmgren:
So Chain React, Gant, I'd like to kick things off and have you just explain for our audience, maybe some people aren't aware of what Chain React is since it's been 20 years since the last time we had one, can you talk about what Chain React is?

Gant Laborde:
Sure. Well, first off, with React Native sort of catching fire supporting iOS and Android, and obviously, us as a agency really pushing the ball forward, we decided to do what we usually do, which is build a cool, safe space to promote thoughts and ideas for that. And then we launched back, I want to say one year after doing full development in there, we did, and 2017 might have been the first one, the very first U.S. only React Native conference. And it was just an amazing feat and bringing all kinds of people together, meeting super amazing people while also hearing some super cool announcements.

Todd Werth:
It was actually the first React Native conference in the world. Call Stack did their European one later that year, I believe.

Gant Laborde:
That's right.

Jamon Holmgren:
Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And I think, Gant, you went to that one over in Europe, right, [crosstalk 00:05:25] ?

Gant Laborde:
Yes. I spoke at Call Stack, yeah. I spoke at Call Stack in 2017, 2018. Then there was a React Native track in React Amsterdam, which is now React Summit and I spoke there as well, super cool stuff, but yeah, as the Time comes out, I think if you're talking React Native in the US, it's Chain React.

Mazen Chami:
At the time, I think it was 2018, so the last one that was hosted, I wasn't with Infinite Red, but I was with a little start up here in Durham and we were building our app in React Native. And I remember just going on the internet and trying to find a conference to get more information and kind of dig deeper into React Native and solve some of the Bluetooth and performance issues that I was having. And Chain React was the only conference that came up and I remember reaching out and went to the conference and I learned a lot from the conference and, of course, that's kind of when I met Jamon and Todd at the time, and then eventually, that kind of grew and then I applied and here I am.

Jamon Holmgren:
It's kind of cool 'cause Chain React has been such a huge part of Infinite Red's history just like we met a bunch of our future employees there and just connected with so many companies. It's been an awesome thing.

Gant Laborde:
Yeah, we are contagiously fun.

Jamon Holmgren:
So in 2020, of course, COVID hit, we had a really tough decision to make and we struggled with it for a while, but we eventually decided to cancel. We were kind of partway into the planning for Chain React already and we decided midstream to cancel. And so that was a really difficult decision, but we thought, you know what? That's okay. We'll skip a year. We'll be back in 2021. We'll be ready to go.

Gant Laborde:
Oh, yes. The endless optimism that is that this will be over, yeah.

Jamon Holmgren:
Exactly. Not thinking that in January 2022, I'd be sitting here behind a mic just having recovered from COVID.

Gant Laborde:
Yeah, exactly.

Jamon Holmgren:
But, we hit 2021 and we had some more discussions and at that point, it was like, you know what? It was like we thought maybe things would be better by the summer of 2021, but it just felt like we just ... there's too much uncertainty at the time. So we ended up canceling last year as well, 2021, but we thought, okay, for sure, we're going to be able to hit 2022. This is going to be good. We started gearing up for that.

Gant Laborde:
Yeah.

Jamon Holmgren:
But now here we are, it's 2022, and we have been having some discussions internally as a leadership group and as a Chain React committee. And so now, we've come to a conclusion about what we want to do. And I'd like to maybe ask Todd to jump in here and kind of explain a little bit more about what we decided and how we came to that conclusion.

Todd Werth:
So it's January, the 19th today as of this recording, we had to make a decision on whether or not to go forward with Chain React. Really, we made it last week, but we really should've made it weeks ago because even though the conference is in July, we have started selling tickets at the beginning of the year. That's typically Chain React starts for us before the beginning of the year and then, it gets announced and the public's able to participate in purchasing tickets and that kind of stuff at the beginning of the year. So we were already running late and you need that kind of lead time for all these kind of things. There's a lot of contracts to sign and hotels to book. Then, of course, we have ticket sales and that kind of stuff, but we pushed it off as much as we could.

Todd Werth:
And we discussed it last week and 2021 was an easy decision. 2020 sucked as a decision because we were right in the middle of it and people had already bought tickets and stuff. 2021 was easy. We're just we're going to do it. 2022 like Jamon said, we fully expected to do it, but here we are with Omicron and the other transformers beating down our doors and it's, we could do it. We had our all team retreat couple months ago and it's doable even with COVID and stuff, but it's different when you have 500 strangers and you can't talk to them and verify, and you don't know what's going on. And so we started discussing, okay, should we do this? Should we do this and stuff? And we were really on the fence.

Todd Werth:
And then, so a lot of our people are in the Portland area. We're not a Portland company, but many of our people are there. And Justin Huskey, our lead design, he's been on this podcast a few times, he was reporting that the Pearl District where we hold the conference is completely shut down. And one of the things we loved about conferences we went to that we loved, that's a horrible sentence, but you know what I mean, was the conferences that were in a location where you could get to the conference quick, you could leave the conference, go to lunch, go to pubs, whatever you want to do, those were awesome. The ones we didn't like was the huge convention center ones where once you got to the convention center, you had to walk 10 minutes to get to the little square room.

Todd Werth:
And so we very specifically picked the Armory in the Pearl District of Downtown Portland because it's just incredibly walkable. The hotels that people stay at, you can just walk over in five, 10 minutes max, and there's tons of restaurants, and there's bars, and there's pubs, and it's just the whole experience for those three day is special.

Gant Laborde:
Oh, most of my favorite memories from Chain React are the announcements, the times on stage, those are fantastic, but the people you meet, building a connection with them. I have so many fond memories of going right across the street and sharing a drink and some great Portland catch-up and just having this moment of really connecting with people. And having places closed down just shuts down what really makes conferences special.

Todd Werth:
With this in mind, we're like, okay, if we're going to do it, we're going to have to change the venue, probably change the city, pick a city that's not closed down, that kind of stuff, which is a huge deal for us because there's a reason we only sell 500 tickets, even if we could sell a thousand, because we love the experience of that location, the intimacy of it, the fact that you do have 500 people, but because of the way it's designed internally, you're always right next to people and you see people over and over again. And it's just, it's super important for us. And it's the same reason we don't do a virtual conference because it just lacks, it lacks the specialness of what we've done. So all that being said, we came to the horrible to make decision not to have Chain React in 2022, which we feel bad about and we do apologize to the community for it 'cause I know a lot of people enjoy it.

Mazen Chami:
Yeah, and I think you kind of hinted at it, Todd, but Gant, can you go ... Some of our listeners are probably thinking, well, let's just have it be an online conference and we can kind of just still get the information across and do all that stuff. Why not go virtual?

Gant Laborde:
Yeah. That's a fantastic question. In 2020, I probably spoke at, I want to say 20 virtual conferences and I still think that someone's going to figure out that formula, but it definitely hasn't been figured out, that is guaranteed. There is no replacement for, even the one that Todd was talking about where you've got a hallway track, you've got this giant hotel or a mall or whatever it is rented out and there's talks in every room. If you move that to virtual, it still loses something and that's the thing that we really harness. That's the prime entity of what Chain React was. You could touch, contact with so many people. There were so many interactive spaces. There were unique things like swapping stickers. Our sponsors loved, love, love that kind of interaction and having so many avid React Native developers walking past their table.

Gant Laborde:
We had a very high bar and even our after parties had a high bar of this rich connection. One year, we actually, one of the sponsors for the after party gave away free 10-minute massages with the massage tables out there. It was really cool. And I just really appreciated that there's this je ne sais quoi, right, there's this one inevitable aspect that we shoot for and that's why people come back. We sell somebody a ticket to Chain React once, we've probably sold them a Chain React ticket every year, and it's up to us to keep that standard.

Todd Werth:
I offered our massages and I didn't get one person take me up on that. I don't know why.

Jamon Holmgren:
I don't understand why.

Gant Laborde:
Maybe it was the outfit.

Todd Werth:
The outfit. Oh, I'm sure it was the outfit, yeah.

Jamon Holmgren:
Yeah. It just occurred to me that one of the things that really affected that first 2017 conference that we did, and we did 2017, 2018 and 2019. Gant wasn't there in 2019.

Gant Laborde:
No.

Jamon Holmgren:
Because his daughter had decided to be born at a very inopportune time.

Gant Laborde:
I told her, I said you wait, little Mila, and you don't get born yet. Apparently, she did not listen.

Jamon Holmgren:
I had just been to WWDC 2016 and that was back when Todd was still living in the Bay Area and I stayed with him and went down to San Francisco and was there, and it was like the worst conference that I've ever been to by far. It was horrible. I met one, two people that I knew and I had to kind of like line that up beforehand, like, "Hey, I'm going to be there. Are you?"

Jamon Holmgren:
2017, we're coming in to do it and I'm like, we're going to have like, let's find a venue where there aren't corners to hide in. It's not big and faceless. And then if I ever see anybody out there as one of the people in a Infinite Red shirt, if I see someone standing in the corner, sit, looking at their phone, I'm going to go over there and I'm going to talk to them and maybe sometimes connect them up with someone else and get them talking. I did that several, many times and came back through later and saw them still talking an hour later. Really, really fun and that was something that has just sort of like every year that we've done it, has continued to be a piece.

Gant Laborde:
That's such a special thing because being one of those people who've gone to a conference with no coworkers in the past, it's hard. It is hard to socialize.

Todd Werth:
Yeah, that was super important when we set up Chain React. It was super important to me. Now I can be fairly outgoing. I'm an introvert, but I can be outgoing as well, but even if you're outgoing and stuff, a lot of conferences tend to be all the cool kids talk with each other and the rest of the people are inspecting their potted plant or their phone. And I know we're developers and we're not the most gregarious people, but it sucks. And so two things we did, one is we weren't staffing the conference with just professional conference people. We were staffing it with [inaudible 00:16:50] engineers so they could talk to you and who actually knew. Two, we had this rule where I am the photographer at the conference, which I love because I get to meet every single person 'cause I take their photo and I get to walk around.

Jamon Holmgren:
People don't know you're the CEO.

Todd Werth:
They don't.

Mazen Chami:
I didn't know you were the CEO till after.

Todd Werth:
Oh, yeah? I like it that way to be honest. But we would look for people and some people don't want to chat, that's fine, but you can at least approach them, give them the opportunity. Even if you just chat with them, but hook, connect them with other people. And the fact that it's that round ... If you haven't been, it's two stories, the one they tell you when you book it and the real story you get there. No, I'm kidding. No, it's literally two stories and there's an atrium in the center [inaudible 00:17:41] so no matter where you are and it does hold 500 people, which is a lot of people, that's a lot of limbs and legs and arms and stuff roaming around and ...

Jamon Holmgren:
Wait, wait. Why do you got to make it so weird?

Todd Werth:
What? I-

Jamon Holmgren:
Limbs and arms and legs?

Gant Laborde:
This is why you don't get massages, Todd.

Todd Werth:
Shit. I just ... I have no ...

Jamon Holmgren:
All right, keep going.

Todd Werth:
Anyways, all these people walk around, but no matter where you're walking, you can see the people. And what you do is you pass people over and over again. And if you don't know someone, but you passed them 10 times, you kind of feel like you know them. And I think it just produced this kind of environment that I loved from RailsComf for when it was a small venue and totally disliked when it was in the huge conferences later as Rails grew.

Mazen Chami:
Yeah. And that was my first conference I've ever attended. And didn't really know anyone and kind of looked like there were a lot of people who knew each other, either from the previous Chain React or had worked together or even just being from the same area. And I was, I remember Shawn who was running the conference at the time said I was potentially the only one from the east coast. So I had all those stacked up against me, but I do remember a bunch of times different Infinite Red employees approaching me and talking to me and kind of bringing me into the group. And that was done early in the conference, which helped the conference kind of go smoothly. And I am kind of an introverted person that finds it hard to kind of step out of my shell early until I get, someone kind of breaks that barrier and that kind of helped ease in the rest of the conference. And I remember actually went to dinner with some people I had met at the conference.

Gant Laborde:
That's perfect. See, that's another ... We get a lot of success stories about Chain React and that's why we can't lower the bar. We're addicted to the success stories. What happens is some people do not want to interact with people at all. But most people going to a conference are looking for positive setup interactions that actually fit and was set up ... And we actually have badges that say, "Ask me about," and you can put a technology on it and you can say, "I would like to know more about," and then you could put a technology on it, and it's just these opportunities. You might be walking past somebody, then you're looking at trying to figure out how to integrate Firebase and someone else has, "Ask me about," and then what are you going to do? Keep inside your shell at that moment? We just want to make so many opportunities for people to actually interact because between the team here, we've been to well over a hundred conferences. So safe to say we know how to do it right.

Jamon Holmgren:
Yeah. And just going back to that decision to not do it digitally, to be completely honest, it's sort of a secret that everybody kind of knows, but doesn't really talk about. The fact is that conferences, in-person conferences, the talks are there to justify to the accounting department why they pay for your ticket to fly out there and attend the conference. I mean that's you do get some information, but it's usually available on YouTube afterward and you can get that information probably by reading the docs or whatever, blog posts and things like that. It's not the information. That's not why you're going. You're going to connect. It's networking. It's you're connecting, you're having some experiences, things like that. Doing a digital conference is basically taking the least important part of the conference and just doing that.

Todd Werth:
Well, you also get to travel to a new city and spend a few days there. I mean that's a really nice perk.

Gant Laborde:
Yeah. And I'd say that that probably was the biggest, that was the coup de grâce on why we couldn't do 2022. Sure, you get-

Todd Werth:
All this fancy French.

Gant Laborde:
Of course, of course. Yeah, I don't speak any French by the way. But one of the things that we made sure of is scouting out the location, scouting out the Pearl District. And my conversations with Justin was getting him to get some information, and I was going to fly out there and actually go ahead and make sure some of these paths were safe and all kinds of other things. If you can't have that, if those places are closed down, that's it. That's just the final part there.

Mazen Chami:
So, that's 2022. Looking ahead, what can we expect for 2023 in a COVID-free world?

Jamon Holmgren:
That's a big, that's a big question, yeah. So I guess the answer to that question is we don't know yet, and we're going to be keeping our finger on the pulse. I'd love to do it in 2023, if we can. I hate every year that we have to push it off, it's just like excruciating 'cause, wow, 2019 was the last time we did. It's 2022 and it's going to be 2023, that's that's a long time to go between Chain Reacts. And when it does come back, React Native's going to be quite different and whatnot.

Jamon Holmgren:
I would like to bring up a few things though. There are some things that our audience, you, the listener, our dear listeners who are hanging out with us right now, can do to stay connected with React Native and with what how things are going and whatnot. First off, I want to mention our company newsletter, which is where we publish Chain React news as it comes out. So just go to newsletter.infinite.red, that will ... You'll get some information about Infinite Red when stuff comes out, but you'll also get information about Chain React. And so, that's a good place to go for Chain React news.

Jamon Holmgren:
You can certainly follow the Chain React Conf account on Twitter. You can also go to the React Native Newsletter, that's reactnativenewsletter.com. These are all things that we manage. Gant is involved with a lot of these things. We have, obviously, this podcast, reactnativeradio.com and you can also go to ... I've been doing livestreaming on Twitch and YouTube; rn.live goes through my Twitch channel and youtube.infinite.red goes to the YouTube side of things if you prefer that. And there's a lot of React Native content coming out of Infinite Red and elsewhere Because, for example, on our newsletter, our React Native Newsletter, we link to all kinds of things that are not Infinite Red. There's stuff from GeekyAnts and Call Stack and all the other big players in the React Native world so you can go there and see all that stuff. So there's a lot of different places that you can stay up to speed on what's going on even without a Chain React.

Gant Laborde:
When we have Chain React, Facebook does major announcements at the conference, which is wonderful, but they don't have anywhere even for themselves. A lot of places don't have places to make announcements so they're just doing it. And then, I'll have to say some of my favorite episodes are we react to news.

Jamon Holmgren:
Yeah. Other than letting people know that we're canceling Chain React 2022 and where they can go to kind of stay up to date and learn more, we've also had some ideas that we're bouncing around, specifically around workshops and I would ... I mean this is Gant's idea and I love it. I would love, and I think Mazen and I have chatted about this, too, teaching an onsite work.

Jamon Holmgren:
Now as Todd mentioned in the early part there, it's really hard to take 500 developers and figure out how to do it safely, but we could probably do 20 to 30 somewhere in there. We could probably figure something out with that, an onsite workshop in Portland somewhere or I don't know where, but we've been kicking around this idea. And so essentially, it'd be a React Native workshop and we would probably take on certain topics. Mazen and I could kick around some ideas. Mazen's taught workshops before and so have I. It would be under our Infinite Red Academy brand rather than a Chain React thing. So Infinite Red Academy is something that we use to promote our education efforts at Infinite Red.

Jamon Holmgren:
So if you're interested in that, if you're looking at potentially, okay, yeah, I may not go to a conference, but I would definitely go to a smaller workshop or something like that, just go to workshop2022.infinite.red. We're going to set up a form there and you can go there and indicate your interest if you're interested in coming to an onsite workshop. We also may consider an online workshop. Again, like we said, it's hard to provide an experience that we can really stand behind, but that is a little more doable with a workshop. So if you're interested in doing that, go to workshop2022.infinite.red and sign up there.

Mazen Chami:
I also think there's value, if you're not interested in doing a virtual workshop, just going in as if it was an option and giving your opinion about it, just so we have the idea of what would work. And then I feel like that way we can tailor something that we've kind of, I guess, vetted through the community and the community would be interested in even doing in the first place.

Jamon Holmgren:
Absolutely.

Gant Laborde:
Yeah. It's actually a big part of Chain React. I don't know if you've mentioned it before in the podcasts, but we've gone onsite as a consulting company quite a bit and trained several companies how to get started with React Native. And then just as a little addendum to Chain React, we usually have workshops for the first day and we always host the getting started with React Native workshop there. So this has been something that's very valuable that it's definitely more feasible than a conference with 500 people.

Jamon Holmgren:
Yeah, exactly. And it'd be something that I think I would ... I mean honestly, when we've done those onsite trainings, it's one of my favorite things. I just I love it.

Gant Laborde:
Yeah. It is.

Jamon Holmgren:
It's so much fun to interact with developers who are kind of ... Often it's like React developers who are trying to get into React Native or sometimes, we can do more advanced topics and I love talking about Native code. I mean this is why we Twitch streaming and stuff like that. This is totally something right up my alley and I know Mazen's excited about as well.

Mazen Chami:
Yeah, absolutely.

Jamon Holmgren:
Cool. Well, thanks so much for joining us, Todd and Gant. Really appreciate-

Gant Laborde:
Pleasure.

Jamon Holmgren:
... your insight into the behind the scenes of our Chain React decision there. It was a tough decision. It's not ... I hated sort of making ... In fact, going into the meeting, I thought we were going to go ahead with it until we really kind of talked it through.

Gant Laborde:
Me, too.

Jamon Holmgren:
But it is the right decision I think.

Gant Laborde:
As soon as humanly possible, I expect Chain React to happen.

Jamon Holmgren:
Yeah, I agree. And it's definitely not something that's just going to go away forever. We're going to bring it back when we can.

Gant Laborde:
Yep.

Todd Werth:
One note about the podcast. Robin Heinze will be returning off of parental leave next week.

Jamon Holmgren:
Yay.

Todd Werth:
I'm not sure which episode she'll be on after that, but soon hopefully.

Jamon Holmgren:
Yeah, can't wait to have Robin back. That's going to be awesome.

Todd Werth:
Not that we don't love Mazen. We do.

Mazen Chami:
I'll pack my bags.

Todd Werth:
We love Mazen. We just love Robin more. That's all.

Gant Laborde:
Oh, Todd.

Mazen Chami:
Love you, too, Todd.

Todd Werth:
Honest question, I assume we're still having Mazen on, right, with Robin?

Gant Laborde:
Oh, of course.

Jamon Holmgren:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, Mazen is a fixture here.

Gant Laborde:
Yeah.

Jamon Holmgren:
If anybody's going to get kicked off, it's going to be me. All right, where can people find you online, Mazen?

Mazen Chami:
@mazenchami.

Jamon Holmgren:
Todd, I know you don't tweet a lot, but where can they find you?

Todd Werth:
It's @twerth, T-W-E-R-T-H.

Jamon Holmgren:
Cool. And Gant?

Gant Laborde:
Gantlaborde.com and Twitter, it's gantlaborde.

Todd Werth:
Oh, man. Gantlaborde.com, there's a huge list of everything Gant's done. It's insane.

Jamon Holmgren:
It's actually a huge list.

Todd Werth:
If you want to feel bad about your career, just spend an afternoon looking at gantlaborde.com.

Mazen Chami:
Headed there now.

Jamon Holmgren:
It's so true.

Gant Laborde:
Yeah, gantlaborde.com.

Jamon Holmgren:
I'm pretty sure you're missing some titles and awards, too. You still have more to add.

Gant Laborde:
Oh, definitely missing stuff. Actually, I have a trophy right here that just came in last week. I haven't put it on the website yet, so it's hard to keep up with all that.

Jamon Holmgren:
And you can find a much less impressive website, jamonholmgren.com and you can also go to my Twitter at @jamonholmgren. React Native Radio is @reactnativerdio. Thanks, again, to Gant and Todd for joining us today. And as always, thanks to our producer and editor, Todd Werth who's also here.

Gant Laborde:
Yay, best [inaudible 00:29:40] show.

Jamon Holmgren:
Our assistant editor and episode release coordinator, Jed. Bartausky, our social media coordinator, Missy Warren, our designer, Justin Huskey, and our guest coordinator, Derek Greenberg. Thanks to our sponsor, Infinite Red. Check us out at infinite.red/reactnative. And a special thanks to all of you for listening to us banter today. If you made it this far, you're one of us, I guess. So make sure to subscribe or send this to a friend. And reminder, we are hiring senior level React Native engineers in the US or Canada. Go to careers.infinite.red. And also, don't forget to go to workshop2022.infinite.red to give your feedback on whether you think a workshop would be something interesting to you or not. We'll see you all next time.

Todd Werth:
Bye-bye.

Gant Laborde:
Bye.